ALIA Online Forum Index
Back to the ALIA main pageALIA Forum Users GuideHelp
SearchSearch FAQFAQ
MemberlistMemberlist Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages
UsergroupsUsergroups Log inLog in
ProfileProfile RegisterRegister  
ALIA RSS feedRSS feed of the ALIA Forums

Proposed Queensland Code of Practice
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    ALIA Online Forum Index -> Current Affairs
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Andy Ciddor
Forums Admin
Forums Admin


Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Hobart, Tasmania

PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 7:54 pm    Post subject: Proposed Queensland Code of Practice Reply with quote

Things are afoot in Queensland that could have a serious impact on the operational capacity and financial viability of all live entertainment, and in particular the hire companies that provide so much of our industry's equipment.

Recent inquests into a workplace electrical fatality and the electrocution of a child at a caravan park have resulted in coronial recommendations for wider use of safety switches and amended regulations for the use of electrical equipment used outside the home.

Specifically, the Coroners recommended:
* amending the Electrical Safety Regulation 2002 (the Regulation) to require regular inspection and maintenance of all electrical equipment used outside the home including the means of delivery of power to equipment;

* expanding the safety switch initiative to include public accommodation such as caravan parks, private rental housing and public housing;

* introducing compulsory electrical inspection of these types of accommodation when sold and mandating regular supervision of electrical installations and maintenance regimes in them;

* legislating for the mandatory installation of safety switches in workplaces; and

* that the Department of Industrial Relations promote electrical safety awareness to the public so that the dangers of substandard electrical work and the benefits of safety switches are understood.

The Electrical Safety Office has initiated the Coroner’s Recommendations Project to explore these coronial recommendations.

The proposed Code of Practice for Electrical Equipment to be made under the Electrical Safety Act 2002 has the potential to impose appreciable cost on the community or part of the community and thus the Electrical Safety Office has undertaken the process of a Regulatory Impact Statement (RIS) to examine all the issues.

The Queensland Government invites all members of the Queensland community to participate in the legislative development process by commenting on any information presented in this RIS.

On examining the documents (which are available for download from http://www.eso.qld.gov.au/legislation/index.htm), there are several points of interest to the lighting, hire and entertainment industries:

* there are some really good ideas relating to risk assessment and risk management that can match your actual operation situation... but
* all hired equipment may be required to be fitted with integral Residual Current Detectors (RCDs or Safety Switches).
* all existing load circuits (both power and lighting) may be required to be fitted with RCDs.
* hired equipment may be required to be tested and tagged before EVERY hire, rather than the Australian/New Zealand standard of every three months.
* stages have been identified as public places (that's not auditoriums, but STAGES - We have lots of punters on our stages).
* costings and operational impacts of implementing these proposals seem to have been made without any reference to the production industry and thus do not reflect the reality of rewiring patch panels or retrofitting RCDs to parcans and 650w mini-fresnels.

There's lots more of this if you care to download the documents and read it for yourself.

If ALIA is to make a submission to the RIS enquiry, it must be tendered by October 13th. To this end we have opend this topic, as a place for discussion of the impact of these proposals and the approach we should take in our submission. If you work, play or do business in the Sunshine State, please contribute to this process.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
jay_cee



Joined: 01 Oct 2004
Location: Gold Coast, QLD

PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2004 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was involved in a similar situation a few years ago in the video hire business, and typical to the good old Aussie way nobody did anything about it, the attitude was, "It will never happen, she'll be right " and the new laws just stormed through, the industry shit itself when the laws were instigated, it took many months of negotiation to have them altered slightly, sort of stuffed the industry for the small to medium guys, everybody then said " We should have done something" too late, it was done.
In saying all this I can understand the repercussions if nothing is done NOW about these new proposals so come on people get behind this and DO something before it is too late, on our own we are a little voice in the wilderness, but together we will be heard, don't say ill do it later, Do it now, we as an industry will suffer,maybe you may like it on the dole when you have to close your doors, its up to us to help, my company is, how about yours Question
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Andy Ciddor
Forums Admin
Forums Admin


Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Hobart, Tasmania

PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2004 11:34 am    Post subject: The ALIA submission Reply with quote

What we need to do here is carefully trawl through the documents to identify the proposed changes that will have an adverse impact on the industry.

Once we have a list of issues that affect us, I will draft a response on behalf of ALIA, and then put it up here for comment and refinement.

I have previously posted my preliminary list:
* all hired equipment may be required to be fitted with integral Residual Current Detectors (RCDs or Safety Switches).
* all existing load circuits (both power and lighting) may be required to be fitted with RCDs.
* hired equipment may be required to be tested and tagged before EVERY hire, rather than the Australian/New Zealand standard of every three months.
* stages have been identified as public places (that's not auditoriums, but STAGES - We have lots of punters on our stages).
* costings and operational impacts of implementing these proposals seem to have been made without any reference to the production industry and thus do not reflect the reality of rewiring patch panels or retrofitting RCDs to parcans and 650w mini-fresnels.


Please add your items to this list.
_________________
Andy Ciddor
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
jay_cee



Joined: 01 Oct 2004
Location: Gold Coast, QLD

PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2004 12:11 pm    Post subject: Code of Practise Reply with quote

Something i failed to add to my last entry, i just checked my documents and i am correct in what i am about to say,
The few alterations that were made to the video situation i mentioned carried an exception and i quote the commissioner
"Only those who have had some form of input and or concern over this matter and directed to the body who is in front of me now will be the only person or persons being a company or sole trader shall be entitled to the amendments that i have made, no further considerations shall be entered into now or in the future, there is no considerations made here for ignorance or inconsideration"
This still applies today and many have challenged it, so don't think that all will be well it may not, so get involved.
I think that it is a dismal sight to see more than 30 views, and not 1 reply or comment, maybe Andy is wasting his time, maybe you all look forward to the dole, am i right here if not give a comment, its not hard to do, Andy needs all the help he can get, after all he is working on our behalf, oh and spread the word as quite a few companies don't know about this so get off your Ar## and do something.
Thats all i have to say, its up to you now.
Jay Cee
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
DavidDuffy



Joined: 30 Jun 2004
Location: Capalaba (Brisbane)

PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2004 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Re: the RCD's on fixtures.

I can't see how it would be feasable to put an RCD on each lighting fixture. I don't know the insides of an RCD intimately, but feeding one from a dimmer pack doesn't sound possible to me.

Looking more closely at the document, it basically says you have to have an RCD on each item unless either the supply has an RCD or the item is checked before each hire.

Some of the newer dimmer packs have RCD's and some venues have RCD's on the 3-phase feeds from the switchboard but there would be a lot of venues and dimmer packs with no RCD's out there.
_________________
David Duffy
Audio Visual Devices
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Andy Ciddor
Forums Admin
Forums Admin


Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Hobart, Tasmania

PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2004 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DavidDuffy wrote:
Re: the RCD's on fixtures.

I can't see how it would be feasible to put an RCD on each lighting fixture. I don't know the insides of an RCD intimately, but feeding one from a dimmer pack doesn't sound possible to me.

That's my point. Not very much of what is suggested is actually feasible. But not being feasible has never stopped anyone from enacting legislation. Just look at the pollies who still believe it's possible to filter spam and porn from the Internet in real time.

Quote:
Looking more closely at the document, it basically says you have to have an RCD on each item unless either the supply has an RCD or the item is checked before each hire.

This will increase the cost of Testing & Tagging by a factor of between 10 and 30 times. This will of course have to be passed on to hirer's as increased hire charges. I suspect that many low cost items such as cables, plug boards, parcans of all varieties, and many low wattage fresnels and profiles will be too expensive to maintain and will simply be withdrawn from dry hire altogether.

Quote:
Some of the newer dimmer packs have RCD's and some venues have RCD's on the 3-phase feeds from the switchboard but there would be a lot of venues and dimmer packs with no RCD's out there


At the very least all dimmer racks and/or distro boards will have to be fitted with RCDs (not a bad thing really). However, every time you hire a piece of equipment that doesn't have an RCD fitted, you will have to fill out paperwork to guarantee that the gear will be use on an RCD equipped system. That should streamline the production process no end Smile
_________________
Andy Ciddor
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
J.P



Joined: 09 Jul 2004
Location: Queensland

PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2004 10:16 am    Post subject: RCD's and Public Hire Reply with quote

I actually do not have a problem with individually fitted RCD's being fitted to equipment destined for the General Public. We at ELS allready supply a small 10 amp RCD with all driveway weekend hires, and instruct them to use it ( Although there is no paperwork waiver presented or signed ). At the moment this is relevant to the following
types of equipment, Small Disco fittings, Pinspots, Par 56 Cans, Small foggers, Small Sound Systems etc I think you get the general idea.
I tend not to hire large equipment to the GP.We also do a visual inspection and a powerup test to all this equipment and it of course carries a current compliance tag. Hard wired RCD Plugs, though being relatively inexpensive to fit, can only realistically be applied to the small amount of equipment that would go to the GP hires, not to the whole of our inventory. All the equipment that is taken by us to be installed and operated for a show is in the hands of competent operators, is under a current compliance tag, and generally the power source has an RCD fitted, in the case of a single dimmer unit straight into a 40 amp 3phase outlet it relies on the power source to have an RCD which in most cases in my experience DOES NOT. You will find most 3 phase supplies are a Breaker straight onto the Bus Bar at the distribution Board.Should not some of the onus go the Venue or building to have this in place. The other alternative is an Inline 3 Phase RCD before the Dimmer, very expensive to implement due to the number that is required for lets say the average ballroom show maybe about $500.00 each inc labour to make, but this still leaves the conundrum of 1.5 m of 3 phase cable unprotected, hence the need for the actual supply to have an RCD. I would say that in most Large show set up's ie Concerts, Large corporate etc , when power is supplied via Veem Powerlock to system distribution boards or similar
The whole system from the distribution is protected by at least 1 or several RCD Breakers, but again not the supply at the board and again you can put a tail box between the board and the power lock runs
which some companies allready implement.
On the subject of testing and taging, i am sure we all see the logistical nightmare of a 48 ft semi full of gear arriving at the shop for a turn around to go straight back out if the 1000 plus items in the cases have to go across a Pats tester, not to mention the initial testing and taging expenses associated with every show we do, ie Labour. Time Tags etc etc etc..
I think we all need to become involved with this debate, I myselfe will be passing this to as many people as possible as we do not have much time for comment.
I suppose if the govt puts this through without our industry responding we have two choices really, Close Shop or Operate Illegally
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
J.P



Joined: 09 Jul 2004
Location: Queensland

PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2004 9:17 am    Post subject: QLD Test and Tag, RCD Reply with quote

Well I guess no one in Queensland is interested, due to the fact that my entry was the last Point of view put forward. I hope that Alia still go ahead with some sort of submision on behalf of the dissinterested Queensland Industry, do we have an industry in Queensland? or do I go to a figment of my own imagination every morning and pump out fictional equipment.
Come on guys !!!!. Alia could just as easily not bother on your behalf, as you have not bothered on your own behalf. I suppose I am really talking to the wall anyway, as I have sent Links etc to a large number of people, and there are no submisions to this forum.
I am also sure, as I recieved it Andy has sent info to all and sundry as well. Today is the 9th and I gather submisions close on the 13th, next wed. SO BE IT
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Andy Ciddor
Forums Admin
Forums Admin


Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Hobart, Tasmania

PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2004 7:12 pm    Post subject: Queensland seems to have dozed off Reply with quote

It seems that ELS is the only company trading in Queensland these days. If that isn't the case today, it may well be the case when the new Code of Practice comes into force. As soon as I wrap up my monthly column for TV Technology magazine in the US, sometime later tonight (Saturday), I will start on the ALIA submission for Queensland.

I would really appreciate some of the interested parties having a look over the proposed Code of Practice and jotting down some notes as to what issues it raises. That would help me to make sure that I address all relevant matters in our submission.

Tempting as it may be to leave Queenslanders to suffer from their own overwhelming indifference, ALIA will continue to develop a submission. Unless of course you're all happy with the new Code. If that is the case please drop us a line, and I'll just sit back with a glass of white and watch the elections on TV (or maybe a DVD of Don's Party Wink )
_________________
Andy Ciddor
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
DavidDuffy



Joined: 30 Jun 2004
Location: Capalaba (Brisbane)

PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2004 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I notice that page 30 of the "code of practice" says:

89 Double adaptors and piggyback plugs prohibited
(1) An employer or self-employed person must not use a double adaptor or piggyback plug.
(2) An employer must ensure the employer’s workers do not use a double adaptor or piggyback plug.

This seems not to apply to hire situations though but "class 2" work although I'm not sure what class hiring does come under.

Also, on page 34, it says that each hired item needs an inspect and test before each hire unless fitted with an RCD. On page 17 however, having an RCD on the supply negates that. Why the difference between the two pages? Am I missing something about the situations to which each page applies?
_________________
David Duffy
Audio Visual Devices
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
DavidDuffy



Joined: 30 Jun 2004
Location: Capalaba (Brisbane)

PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2004 10:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looking at the "Regulatory Impact Statement", on page 15 option 3 proposes the introduction of RCDs to all workplaces. (over a 4 year period) I think this would be the way to go instead of pushing for RCDs on every piece of gear that is hired out. We have RCDs on all benches and feeds to GPOs in our workplace. The cost was minimal really and I certainly sleep better with them installed. The RCD issue seems to be the main one that would concern hire organisations. Surely there must be hire companies in QLD other than ELS that have something to say on this situation??
_________________
David Duffy
Audio Visual Devices
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Andy Ciddor
Forums Admin
Forums Admin


Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Hobart, Tasmania

PostPosted: Sun Oct 10, 2004 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DavidDuffy wrote:
I notice that page 30 of the "code of practice" says:

89 Double adaptors and piggyback plugs prohibited
(1) An employer or self-employed person must not use a double adaptor or piggyback plug.
(2) An employer must ensure the employer’s workers do not use a double adaptor or piggyback plug.

This seems not to apply to hire situations though but "class 2" work although I'm not sure what class hiring does come under.

Also, on page 34, it says that each hired item needs an inspect and test before each hire unless fitted with an RCD. On page 17 however, having an RCD on the supply negates that. Why the difference between the two pages? Am I missing something about the situations to which each page applies?


Indeed, my reading of the documents also revealed several inconsistencies and confusion over definitions.

This is why it so important that ALIA become registered as an interested party for the next round of revisions to the proposed code, as we are then in the position to point out inconsistencies and have them resolved before the code is put into the hands of inspectors to interpret. They will be forced to make it up as they go along, due to poor guidance in the Code - a situation likely to end in total chaos for our industry.
_________________
Andy Ciddor
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Andy Ciddor
Forums Admin
Forums Admin


Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Hobart, Tasmania

PostPosted: Sun Oct 10, 2004 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DavidDuffy wrote:
Looking at the "Regulatory Impact Statement", on page 15 option 3 proposes the introduction of RCDs to all workplaces. (over a 4 year period) I think this would be the way to go instead of pushing for RCDs on every piece of gear that is hired out. We have RCDs on all benches and feeds to GPOs in our workplace. The cost was minimal really and I certainly sleep better with them installed. The RCD issue seems to be the main one that would concern hire organisations. Surely there must be hire companies in QLD other than ELS that have something to say on this situation??


As I see it, there are a couple of issues here:
The likely safety impact of spending a lot of money on RCDs for lighting circuits is negligible. Lighting circuits (not our production lighting, but general building and architectural lighting) are generally located well above the height where they present a shock hazard to the general public. Even the Coroner's report is not about situations that would have been improved with the addition of RCDs on lighting circuits. It seems that someone may have just thrown lighting circuits into the proposal for the sake of completeness, without looking at the safety impact (which I would guess is close to zero). This also makes one very suspicious of the rigour with which the whole process has been thought through.

The costings for retrofitting RCDs to every existing circuit seems to me to be a gross underestimate. Adding RCDs to switchboards in most installations will require the total replacement of the switchboard due to (a) the physical space required for RCDs and (b) the total rewiring required to route each Neutral through an RCD before terminating on the Neutral bus..

Once these costings are revised, the economic impact of the proposed changes will become much more evident. At this point a proper cost/benefit study could then reveal where we would achieve the most valuable safety dividend from the application of RCDs. Caravans, workshops, kitchens, factory floors, stage GPOs and other work places seem like good places to offer protection via RCDs. I'm not so sure how much will be gained by protecting air-conditioners, hot water services, roller-doors and similar devices.

The very fact that none of these matters is discussed in the RIS, would seem to be an indication that this whole process is not being handled by people with an understanding of the real impact of their proposals.
_________________
Andy Ciddor
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Andy Ciddor
Forums Admin
Forums Admin


Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Hobart, Tasmania

PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 2:17 pm    Post subject: ALIA's submission on the Code of Practice Reply with quote

Even though most of the Queensland industry was too busy to bother about their future, we figured that nobody in the industry really wanted to have to Test & Tag every piece of equipment, every time a venue is hired, or every time rental equipment is hired out.

After discussions with a member of the Stakeholders' Reference Group, ALIA has discovered that many of what appeared to be draconian measures contained in the Code of Practice, were actually the result of imprecise drafting. ALIA has now sought to be included in the Stakeholders' Reference Group that will continue with the process of reviewing the proposed Code of Practice.

The full text of the ALIA submission is available for download as an Acrobat (PDF) file.
_________________
Andy Ciddor
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Andy Ciddor
Forums Admin
Forums Admin


Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Hobart, Tasmania

PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2004 1:36 pm    Post subject: Further news on Code of Practice. Reply with quote

Today (Thursday 21st October) ALIA was invited to join the Stakeholder Reference Group and attend their next meeting, TOMORROW in Brisbane.

Arrangements have now been made so that ALIA can participate in the meeting via a conference phone hook-up from my office at home in Hobart (way better than flying all that way for a short meeting).


I will post a report on the outcomes of the meeting, sometime over the weekend.
_________________
Andy Ciddor
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    ALIA Online Forum Index -> Current Affairs All times are Australian EST (GMT + 10hrs)
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
ALIA theme adapted by Andy Ciddor from subSilver by subBlue design
All content is © Copyright Australasian Lighting Industry Association (Incorporated), 2003-2004