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kopy
Joined: 03 Sep 2007
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 Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2011 12:38 pm Post subject: Electrical work |
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Hello,
I'm often told by people that's you're not allowed to, for example, rewire a plug.
Is it actually a criminal offence to do electrical work without being a qualified electrician? Is it enough to just be deemed competent? If it is illegal does anybody have a link for this?
I'm based in QLD but what about other states as I (and many others) work all over the country.
Can somebody with a test and tag licence put a new plug on something? It seems odd that you'd be able to inspect something and deem it electrically safe but not be trusted to wire the plug in a safe manner in the first place
Thanks. |
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zordmaker
Joined: 12 Jun 2010
Location: Temmyson
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| Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2011 2:39 pm Post subject: Re: Electrical work |
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| kopy wrote: |
Hello,
I'm often told by people that's you're not allowed to, for example, rewire a plug.
Is it actually a criminal offence to do electrical work without being a qualified electrician? Is it enough to just be deemed competent? If it is illegal does anybody have a link for this?
I'm based in QLD but what about other states as I (and many others) work all over the country.
Can somebody with a test and tag licence put a new plug on something? It seems odd that you'd be able to inspect something and deem it electrically safe but not be trusted to wire the plug in a safe manner in the first place
Thanks. |
It is illegal to carry out fixed wiring work in any state in Australia.
What constitutes "fixed wiring work" varies from state to state, but it generally refers to any wiring work which is permanently fixed to "buildings, structures or premises.''
In the past the rule of thumb was always to consider any socket outlet to be the point at which "fixed wiring work" ends and an "appliance" begins. So you do not need to have an electrician's license to wire a plug however you do need one to wire the socket it plugs into.
That all said, it can be argued that any "fixed appliance" (such as a light, fan or anything fixed in position and not normally designed to be moved about) constitutes part of the "fixed wiring work" and thus is also subject to the rules about work only being done by licensed persons - even if the "fixed appliance" is connected to the wiring through use of a plug and socket. A common example might be an office ceiling full of troffer flouro fittings - where it is pretty obvious that the complete installation including the lights themselves constitutes part of the "fixed installation".
Things get even muddier in the world of temporary installations though - and this includes most of the entertainment sector. Again the key word is "fixed". Anything designed to be permanently installed and left there, and is not necessarily a "portable appliance" - is "Fixed" - regardless of the presence of plugs or sockets.
An entertainment example of "fixed wiring work" which people normally don't associate as being such - is a stage lighting patch bay in a venue. The plugs, flexible cords, all the wiring between them and the socket outlets in the roof or on the bars - is all considered as part of the "fixed wiring installation" and thus must only be installed or serviced by a licensed electrician - even though they essentially "plug in" and under the old rule of thumb, are not.
I never cease to be amazed at the number of patch bays I find in venues which have been supposedly safety tested and then tagged - with a tag on every lead.
Of course such an action is a bonanza for the contractor doing the tagging - at $10 per tag that's $480 for a typical 48 way patchbay and all for about 2 hours' work.
Legally however they have broken the law. The only person legally allowed to safety test a patch bay is a licensed electrician - because it is part of the fixed wiring installation. Of course the other fact (that you cannot conduct a continuity or earth impedance test on any patch bay without access to both the plug and socket ends) is lost on these people. They just plug each lead into the PAT, note the green status and tag it, even though the plug on the PAT is not even plugged in to the other end!
Another common practice 20 years ago was to supposedly "absolve" responsibility of the law by "connecting" a part of a fixed installation by plugging it into another socket. Example would be a work shed wired by unlicensed persons and fed by a 15A flex plugged into a socket in another building. One would think the "plugged in" building was exempt from the laws - however it is not, since the wiring actually in it is still classed as fixed wiring and thus subject to AS3000.
Further misunderstanding used to exist regarding generator sets, the industry understanding being that the law only referred to installations fed from the public electricity network. However since 1992 these rules were tightened up to include all fixed installations regardless of type or feed - again the key word is always "fixed".
Hope that stirs the mud up for you.
Just to confirm, in Australia you can do your own wiring of anything - as long as it is NOT fixed wiring work.
That doesn't necessarily mean you're protected if you make a mistake and kill someone. That's another matter altogether and is dealt with by a different court - one where those words "competent person" are the keys and the word "licensed" means nothing anyway.
ZM
Lic No 32064C |
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GL
Joined: 29 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2011 4:45 pm Post subject: Re: Electrical work |
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[quote="zordmaker"]
| kopy wrote: |
Further misunderstanding used to exist regarding generator sets, the industry understanding being that the law only referred to installations fed from the public electricity network. However since 1992 these rules were tightened up to include all fixed installations regardless of type or feed - again the key word is always "fixed".
Hope that stirs the mud up for you.
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Speaking of stirring up the mud.....
In making the futile attempt to gain the NREL, late 90's... The elecrical licensing commission (NSW) was contacted and their response was that they were only concerned with that which is connected to the mains supply.
They used all sorts of points and arguments against issuing the NREL to outside of anyone connected with hotwater instalation or factory machinery. When just genset hookups was mentioned, even with licensed electrician supplied fittings and instructions etc, they still refused (and quite nastily too, I might add) and said gensets have nothing to do with us... only the mains.
someone in the commission dealing out incorrect information?
_________________
"No matter what age we are, some have never quite left the schoolyard" |
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zordmaker
Joined: 12 Jun 2010
Location: Temmyson
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| Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2011 5:36 pm Post subject: Re: Electrical work |
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[quote="GL"]
| zordmaker wrote: |
Speaking of stirring up the mud.....
In making the futile attempt to gain the NREL, late 90's... The elecrical licensing commission (NSW) was contacted and their response was that they were only concerned with that which is connected to the mains supply.
They used all sorts of points and arguments against issuing the NREL to outside of anyone connected with hotwater instalation or factory machinery. When just genset hookups was mentioned, even with licensed electrician supplied fittings and instructions etc, they still refused (and quite nastily too, I might add) and said gensets have nothing to do with us... only the mains.
someone in the commission dealing out incorrect information? |
The NREL was designed for one purpose and one puurpose only : to allow hot water services to be swapped over by a single trade instead of requiring attendance by two separate trades (in many cases, twice). I lost count of how many HWS D&R's I did in the late '80s.
Connecting gensets to fixed installations is squarely in the Licensed Sparky department, always has been - for good reason. No two situations are alike and the potential for islanding and all the associated hazards that come with it, are very real.
Says he, pausing to remember a certain night at Fox Studios during the filming of Babe : Pig in the City... |
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BoredOp
Joined: 16 May 2003
Location: Melbourne
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| Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2011 9:36 pm Post subject: |
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Kopy,
To actually answer your question, In QLD it is illegal to carry out any electrical work unless you are a licenced electrician, or at a minimum a restricted electrical licence holder.
The following 2 documents/legislations are what you need to read.
http://www.legislation.qld.gov.au/LEGISLTN/CURRENT/E/ElectricalSA02.pdf
http://www.legislation.qld.gov.au/LEGISLTN/CURRENT/E/ElectricalSR02.pdf
Just being deemed competent is not enough. You have to either be licenced or supervised by someone who is. And remember everything you work on has to be tested back into service, even if you are dealing with Extra Low Voltage stuff, as more than likely you are exposing single insulated, and may have done damage without knowing.
Because when you rewire a plug you need are exposing yourself to a single insulated low voltage cable, this is not allowed by anyone.
With this in mind, every other state now deams this to be able to be done by anyone, as they no longer teach or require those components of the NREL anymore. It is now only NREL 1 and 2. plugs and sockets and fixing faults was 3-6
I had my NREL from WA for ten years, could not renew it as it wasnt needed anymore. Now i have just completed the training and passed the exams in Victoria, knowing full well that i may not be able to actually get the licence in Victoria, however am attempting to use it to gain the QLD one, so as i can undertake basic maintenance and cleaning of the fixtures i have when i tour shows to QPAC. If i am unable to use it for the QLD licence, i will require one of the venue electricians everytime i open a fixture to do anything, this of course will lead to lamps out for shows and longer times to get a lamp back up to a working condition, depending on the electricians schedule. As it is illegal to undertake this work without this license i can not and will not undertake the repairs without supervision. In any other state, i shall just do it  |
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Andy Ciddor
Forums Admin
Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Hobart, Tasmania
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| Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2011 10:14 pm Post subject: Re: Electrical work |
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| kopy wrote: |
| Can somebody with a test and tag licence put a new plug on something? It seems odd that you'd be able to inspect something and deem it electrically safe but not be trusted to wire the plug in a safe manner in the first place |
The only licence that qualifies you to test and tag is an electrician's licence.
All other testing and tagging is carried out on specific premises in which the responsible person has deemed you to be a competent person for the purpose of testing and tagging.
This has no relationship whatsoever to the task of changing and installing plugs.
Inspection, Testing and Tagging is about identifying unsafe equipment, not repairing it.
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Andy Ciddor |
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Andy Ciddor
Forums Admin
Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Hobart, Tasmania
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| Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2011 10:29 pm Post subject: |
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| BoredOp wrote: |
| Now i have just completed the training and passed the exams in Victoria, knowing full well that i may not be able to actually get the licence in Victoria, however am attempting to use it to gain the QLD one, so as i can undertake basic maintenance and cleaning of the fixtures i have when i tour shows to QPAC. If i am unable to use it for the QLD licence, i will require one of the venue electricians everytime i open a fixture to do anything, this of course will lead to lamps out for shows and longer times to get a lamp back up to a working condition, depending on the electricians schedule. As it is illegal to undertake this work without this license i can not and will not undertake the repairs without supervision. In any other state, i shall just do it |
It's my understanding from what Doug Brimblecombe [QPAC head of lighting] was telling us at the test and tag seminar at Entech a few weeks ago that it is QPAC policy to have ticketed sparkies on hand, either on the crew or from the electrical maintenance dept, to facilitate exactly this kind of on-the-spot show maintenance and repairs.
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Andy Ciddor |
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BoredOp
Joined: 16 May 2003
Location: Melbourne
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| Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 12:42 am Post subject: |
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Andy,
Shall see how that all goes on a day to day basis, a year ago, we had to book the sparky, so some repairs took 36 hours before someone was available. Also if something happens on fridays you had to wait till tuesday to do stuff. It means a lot of repairs can not be carried out in the air, and swap outs are needed, not fun when every light needs to be dropped with rope and pulley. Which of course leads to 60 mins of replotting positions of fixtures... Its when i wish all fixture manufacturers had an adjustment in the menu system like the Mac 2000s at least, one good thing about them.... The bad stuff is for another day.
Nothing against the policy since it is law, i just wish there were ways we could become licenced a lot easier nationally... As i said, i have passed the NREL 1 + 2 recently, and previously 1, 3,5,6. and undertaken many specific manufacturer training. Yet since it is not needed in Victoria for our industry i can not pay my money to get the plastic card. and then who knows if QLD will recognise the RMIT training, who taught a national course, yet states dont recognise it.... One of the many problems with states and national laws etc... |
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GL
Joined: 29 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 1:08 am Post subject: Re: Electrical work |
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| zordmaker wrote: |
The NREL was designed for one purpose and one puurpose only : to allow hot water services to be swapped over by a single trade instead of requiring attendance by two separate trades (in many cases, twice). I lost count of how many HWS D&R's I did in the late '80s.
Connecting gensets to fixed installations is squarely in the Licensed Sparky department, always has been - for good reason. No two situations are alike and the potential for islanding and all the associated hazards that come with it, are very real.
Says he, pausing to remember a certain night at Fox Studios during the filming of Babe : Pig in the City... |
Not doubting for a moment what you were, and are, saying isn't correct, mine was a reflection on how that restricted license was marketed during the course, and impressions given, and the following through on that with the licensing commission. TAFE gave a different impression of its use (disconnect - reconnect and commssion - like for like or less), compared to the licensing commission, and I wasn't intimating that hooking up a genset to be left to any other than a fully qualified license, and in most cases, an situation experienced fully qualified license.
The screamer at the TAFE was, at that time, it required a 50% pass mark... go figure.
All in all, it is a good course to do.
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Electrical wiring work is defined in the Home Building Act 1989, for licensing purposes, as having the same meaning as it has in the Electricity (Consumer Safety) Act 2004.
Refer to Australian/New Zealand Wiring Rules entitled AS/NZS 3000:2007, Electrical Installations (known as the Australian/New Zealand Wiring Rules), as in force from time to time, published jointly by Standards Australia and Standards New Zealand.
Electrical wiring work means the actual physical work of installing, repairing, altering, removing or adding to an electrical installation or the supervising of that work.
electrical installation means any fixed appliances, wires, fittings, apparatus or other electrical equipment used for (or for purposes incidental to) the conveyance, control and use of electricity in a particular place, but does not include any of the following:
•subject to any regulation made under Electricity (Consumer Safety) Act 2004 subsection (4) – any electrical equipment used, or intended for use, in the generation, transmission or distribution of electricity that is:
(i) owned or used by an electricity supply authority, or
(ii) located in a place that is owned or occupied by such an authority
•any electrical article connected to, and extending or situated beyond, any electrical outlet socket
•any electrical equipment in or about a mine
•any electrical equipment operating at not more than 50 volts alternating current or 120 volts ripple-free direct current
•any other electrical equipment, or class of electrical equipment, prescribed by the regulations.
Remember, it is an offence to undertake electrical wiring work without a licence or certificate. You can be fined $22,000 as an individual or $110,000 as a company for doing unlicensed electrical work.
http://www.fairtrading.nsw.gov.au/Tradespeople/Home_building_licensing/Licence_classes_and_qualifications/Electrical.html
_________________
"No matter what age we are, some have never quite left the schoolyard"
Last edited by GL on Mon Aug 29, 2011 1:57 am; edited 2 times in total |
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BoredOp
Joined: 16 May 2003
Location: Melbourne
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| Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 1:39 am Post subject: |
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Was 85% on the practical and theory last week... And there were 3 things that if you forgot to do on the practical they were worth - 35 points ie: instant fail as you could only lose 25 before failing anyway....
Last edited by BoredOp on Mon Aug 29, 2011 3:07 am; edited 1 time in total |
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GL
Joined: 29 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 2:07 am Post subject: |
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I'm glad they've lifted their game a bit then  my experience with them was back in '99
_________________
"No matter what age we are, some have never quite left the schoolyard" |
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BoredOp
Joined: 16 May 2003
Location: Melbourne
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| Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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Got my reply today that i hoped didnt come...
The Fair and Safe Work Queensland department, will not recognise the Victorian training, so the only way to work in QLD is via mutual recognition, which means getting the licence in another state, and in my case Victoria, however the kicker is that i am struggling to get the licence in Victoria as 99% of what we do does not need a licence to perform the maintenance. And 1% does not make it needed for our general callling of work. If only i did air con or hot water....
A farce of a National Restricted Electrical Licence. |
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zordmaker
Joined: 12 Jun 2010
Location: Temmyson
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| Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 8:48 pm Post subject: Re: Electrical work |
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| GL wrote: |
mine was a reflection on how that restricted license was marketed during the course, and impressions given, and the following through on that with the licensing commission. |
STANDARD. Never believe what TAFE tell you on such matters. Especially now, with all the national units involved.
It's interesting reading here about the situation in QLD, which I was not aware of, very different here in NSW. I can't see how such a system could really work, it must be like telecommunications where since nobody is watching, 80% of the work is done by unqualified people anyway.
| Quote: |
The screamer at the TAFE was, at that time, it required a 50% pass mark... go figure.
All in all, it is a good course to do. |
The bottom line on the restricted license is " A little knowledge can be very dangerous". And I reluctantly agree.
That said, I don't believe the risk is anything near like it was 20 years ago. Nowadays workers have only 20 or 30 years' worth of difference technology and methods to be familiar with. Circuit breakers and RCDs are the norm and there's not a lot of variation in challenges from job to job.
Back in the '80s we had nearly 60 years of difference to handle, from the latest new installations right back to live open back switchboards, knife switches, VIR and lead sheath cable. In many cases you would meet all of them in one venue, side by side. Consideration of short circuit performance was something that bought blank faces to most. Rewirable fuses were the norm - with a considerable number of these containing either the wrong fuse wire or none at all. There were more variants of HRC fuse than there were bubbles in beer.
I had eight years of this stuff before I even got involved seriously in the film work in Sydney, nobody else had any idea so wherever something like this was fund so it was always left to me to sort it out. Nowadays it's all pretty much gone along with the venues themselves (Moore Pk Sydney Showgrounds being the best example I can think of)
So back then a restricted license would have been useless. However I can believe today there should be such a qualification and that (as a minimum) any person doing "test and tag" should hold one.
30 years ago anything on the boy side of the plug was the responsibility of appliance repairers (TV techs, Whitegoods, motors, power tools etc). Nobody repairs stuff like this now so the old "electrical fitter" qualifications have all but vanished leaving a vacuum of skills. Everyone looks to the mechanics (i.e. the traditional "electrician" qualification) but these guys have only been trained in all the stuff up to the girly end of the plug.
Enough rant.
| Quote: |
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Electrical wiring work is defined in the Home Building Act 1989, for licensing purposes, as having the same meaning as it has in the Electricity (Consumer Safety) Act 2004.
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Thanks. That's the one, laddie!
ZM |
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DavidDuffy
Joined: 30 Jun 2004
Location: Capalaba (Brisbane)
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| Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 7:28 am Post subject: |
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I was advised that in QLD you can perform electrical repairs (appliances) as long as it is done in a "prescribed workshop" (I think that is the term anyway) without having any licence. The work still needs to be performed with the relevant standards in mind of course.
This means your typical radio / TV repairers are covered. You can't however do any of that work on site - it must all be done in that workshop.
This information came from the Electrical Contractors Workers Board some years ago after many discussions with them and the QLD Electrical Safety Office.
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David Duffy
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