Jands Vista lighting console - an interesting idea

[Andy Ciddor]

We have finally found out what has been keeping everyone busy in the R&D Department at Jands Electronics for the last couple of years. Its name is Vista. Read more about it at http://www.jandsvista.com. It looks very interesting indeed.

Has anyone seen one of these machines in the flesh, or is this console, like many others in recent times, currently just a shell with a pretty display, still awaiting completion of the real operational software?

If you have been a Vista alpha/beta tester, can you tell us all how much fun it is to drive, and how easily you were able to make the transition to its different way of thinking.
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Andy Ciddor

[Spot]

Andy,

Thanks for your kind comments on the Vista. It's been keeping us extremely busy and we're very happy with the result.

The Vista was formally launched on the AC Lighting stand at PLASA this year. To date all our testing has been done by a small 'focus group' that includes Neil Vann from AC in London and Dave Harding in Australia. In fact Dave was at PLASA and presented a regular 20 minute demo that got an incredible reaction from everyone that saw it. The console will also be shown at LDI in November and will be shipping in March 2004.

At present the console is much more than a pretty box with no innards. Yes we had some feedback from people who saw it at PLASA, but nothing major and we feel that shipping in March next year is definitely an achievable target.

You wont get any responses from beta testers yet - the only two so far have been the aforementioned Dave and Neil, and they've been involved with development so can't really give you an unbiased opinion. For the record were hoping to start external beta testing in about a month.


More information as it comes to hand.
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David Timmins
Jands Pty Ltd

[Chris Hocking]

Hi all!

Ever since I started "playing" with a lot of Macromedia's programs (such as Flash, Director and Dreamweaver), I have wondered why no one has ever ported the timeline theory that they use, to a lighting desk.

In fact, a few months ago I jump on my faithful copy of Visual Basic and had a play to develop that idea. After a few hours I had a basic design that, I though was pretty user friendly. But in the end, what's the point, who is going to listen to a 18-year-old newbie and put such a feature in their desk? I even asked a few of my LD friends, but they all said that they didn't like the idea. Oh well, I thought!

After watching the movie "Minority Report", I also wondered why no one has ever developed a computer system which is primarily controlled by your hands. You can easily draw what your thinking on paper, so why can't someone develop a software package that can convert your ideas from "paper" (ie. touch screen) to "code" (ie. drawings that the computer can understand). Again I jumped on VB and had a play...simple idea, you draw a performance space via touch screen, assign measurements to each item you draw and then the computer program converts the input into a "virtual image" (ie. straightens the lines and converts it into 3D data). Again though, after I finished "playing" I'd had my fun and forgot about it...

When I first jumped on the Hog 1K I always wondered why they couldn't create a "global colour system", so that when I said I wanted red on every light, I didn't have to manually tell it what "red" was for each fixture.

Although I'm pretty good with a computer keyboard, and can find my way around most computer programs with any hassels, I really love "pushing buttons" and "turning knobs", and I have always asked myself why lighting desks are headed into a more compact and "screen based" direction. I'd much rather have the "old steam train" than an "military jet" that has "on, off and go" buttons...

After reading about the Jands Vista it seems most of my ideas have become a reality! They've got the timeline idea happening, have developed a "global colour system", and have even got a "Pen Tablet" happening. To top it all off there are more faders than you can poke a stick at!

It appears to me that the people at Jands are on the same wavelength as me...and I think it's great! I have had a look at the Vista site and I must say, it looks like it will be quite an amazing desk! If I had a spare, well, whatever-it-will-cost, I would buy one without a doubt!

But, with that said, there is a few things I would like to talk about.

It seems to me that lighting desks these days are just PC's with a few extra addons (ie. DMX out). Personally, I don't like that. I've "played" with computers since I was very, very young, and I know that they crash and playup (well, Dah!).

I've "played" with Windows 3.1/95/98/XP/2K/NT, Linux (Redhat, SuSE, and the list goes on), etc. Windows is designed poorly, and Linux is still in constant development. I know there are thousands out there that will say I'm wrong on this issue (claiming their machine is 100% foolproof), and I must say that my current XP machine is as solid as a rock, and the latest Linux Mandrake is aswell, but every blue moon something still goes wrong (ie. the computer slows down because "it feels like it"; ie. you can't find any explanation!!).

If I was a pro-lighting guru, I don't think I'd ever trust a PC. I'd much rather have a desk like the LSC-range, which in my opinion are not classed as PC's, but more, electronic devices with a homemade operating system. Maybe I'm just crazy, but I'd trust my TI-83 calculator over my beasty P4!

(What OS is the Vista running behind its slick GUI?)

I also wonder why a P4 2.6GHz CPU is running behind the scenes? Wouldn't it be better to have a dual, or even quad processor doing the number crunching? Maybe the software doesn't need it (you can run a whole ISP off an old 80486!), but couldn't you at least use the second CPU as a realtime backup function like several of the other "modern" desks do?

And what about the hard drive? Why just one 20GB? I think, personally, not being an expert at all, nor having any real experience in computer hardware, that the best way to get performance is to seperate all the different sections (ie. OS, User Data, Virtual Memory, etc.) into physically different drivers on different controllers. Personally I would have maybe a 2GB hard drive for the OS, a 1GB partition for the Virtual Memory (ie. paging), and maybe 10-20-30-100GB for User Data. Put the User Data and the OS hard drives on one controller, and the Virtual Memory on another. In my limited experience, this speads up a normal PC a lot. Just having different partitions on the single physical hard drive doesn't work - or at least, that is what i've found.

I do like the Vista idea though, I really do. Just looking at the screenshots lets you see that the GUI is very familar, and much like every other Windows-based product. I do wonder though, if you've got the money, the resources and the brains, why stop at just this? I can think of hundreds of other ways lighting desks could be improved - I'd keep typing forever but I'm sure most of my ideas are already in the Beta version!

Anyway, this is just my 2 cents (probably a bit more, but, hey, it's only money!)...

If I think of anything else to say, I'll keep this forum posted!

Good luck Jands and I can't wait to see the results!

Best Regards, Chris.

[Spot]

Chris,

The Vista uses an off-the-shelf embedded CPU card. The board we have chosen uses an Intel 845 chipset and has been very good so far, unlike one of the other boards we tried that used a different brand chipset. So good in fact I doubt that the board will cause any issues long term. The system board we're using is not designed for a desktop PC, although you could use it for that if you had the money to spend - they aren't cheap.

Writing our own OS and GUI is really out of the question for a product with the complexity of the Vista. At a guess it would probably double the development time for very little gain. You could maybe make a bit more efficient however processor power gets cheaper every day so losing a bit in efficiency can easily be made up for by just getting a faster CPU, as we have done.

For the record the consoles that have been doing the rounds at trade shows have Pentium3s and to date have been running unoptimised/debug-enabled code. Their performance has been more than satisfactory however we're going to a P4 design to ensure a long term supply and to allow room for software upgrades. Optimising the code will also improve performance.

In general PC hard disk space gets chewed up with all the additional program files, images, games and general downloaded guff that we all put on there every day. The Vista is a lighting console and we are intending to prohibit using it for pretty much anything but the Vista app, so 20GB should be more than enough. As far as hard disk access goes, once the system has booted and show loaded the hard drive doesn't get much access, except perhaps for very large shows where the virtual memory kicks in. FWIW the system RAM is probably going to be 512MB so I expect there will be little hard disk activity due to virtual memory effects.

Hope this clears up a few of your questions. Would be interested to know what other ideas you have.


Best


David timmins
Jands Pty Ltd

[Chris Hocking]

Dear David,

Thank you very much for replying to my rather large and abstract message!

In regards to the OS, I'm presuming you're using a member of the Windows Embedded Family (XP perhaps?)...? I'm guessing your building the Vista app with Visual C++?

I was also wondering about how the system handles abnormal shutdowns (ie. turn it off at the wall)? Unlike WIN95/98, XP seems to have no problems with these kinds of issues (I guess NTFS and lack of scandisk have something to do with it), but how will your Vista app "recover"? If I'm doing a show and someone trips over the wire and the desk losses power, will it jump back to the exact same spot after rebooting? The MAXXYZ (Martin's baby) have what they call a failure redundancy system; Vista has something likewise?

Just out of interest, why the Firewire?

Does Vista have a integrated 3D Visualized? (I'm guessing not because of the hardware used, but then again, it is a very "visual" piece of software.)

The MAXXYZ has a lot of focus on multimedia uses. Does the Vista follow this path as well?

Motorized faders?

Seeing as Vista is basically a software product, will you be releasing any PC Beta releases so that the general public can offer their ideas and suggestions?

Finally, a more general question. I am very interested in Lighting, and more specifically Lighting Desk design and manufacture. How do you become involved in the development (ie. Alpha/Beta tester)of these kinds of new products without being a famous LD? Although I'm no expert in Computers nor Lighting, I feel that after "playing" with your product for a few hours that I could definitely offer some words of wisdom. Being in Melbourne would be a bit of an issue, but I am going to be in Sydney for a period January on-wards next year.

Anything else I can think of, I'll post here.

(Thanks again David!)

Best Regards, Chris.

[Spot]

Hi Chris,

A few quick responses for you:


OS is Linux, app is written in C++.

We're using a journaling file system with automated backups to prevent against power fail data loss. It works well.

Firewire wont be present in production version consoles, but there'll be two back panel USB2 ports instead. USB2 is more prevalent and has similar capacity.

No 3D visualiser - Cast already do a very good product.

Multimedia support is very limited (audio only).

No motorised faders.

The Vista software is developed on PCs running Windows. We already distribute beta versions to various people for testing, however at present we aren't giving them out to the public. Not quite ready yet.

As far as giving input, we really try not to discriminate when people give ideas about our product ie you don't have to be famous, just have a good idea. In fact many of the "out there" ideas come from non-famous people. Please feel free to send any thoughts you have to me. Having said that, we do tend to discriminate when giving Beta software to people to play around with, especially in the early days when things may not be quite as perfect as we'd all like it to be. As stated above we're not ready yet, but when we are I'll post a message here.


Thanks for your interest.

Best etc


David Timmins
Jands R&D

[adam]

Hi,

Well that sure rests a few concerns for me.

You talk of removing Firewire for USB2.0 - To my understanding USB is an inferior protocol - as far as data transport, reliability, latency, duplex etc is concerned.

Must admit I havn't had that much to do with the 2.0 incarnation of it, however.

I use firewire everyday - and love it!
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Adam Boon
webmaster@paservices.com

[Chris Hocking]

Hi all!

In regards to USB Vs. Firewire...

Here is a link to some benchmark tests:

http://www.techtv.com/screensavers/supergeek/jump/0,24331,3393574,00.html

My thoughts:

Why do you need speed if you're only transferring a small amount of data (ie. a lighting show) from one PC to another (in effect)...? Almost all PCs and Mac's have USB ports, and only newer technology seems to have Firewire, so why bother with it? Personally I don't see this as being a major concern at all. USB, although it may not be as fast as Firewire, works fine and for simple tasks such as connecting two bits of technology together to transfer limited amounts of data would be my choice (it's cheaper too!)...

(With that said, Adam I'm no expert and I'm trying to crush your point of view!)

(I guess it comes down to what you currently use and prefer, but technically speaking I don't see a problem with USB.)

(Great to see people getting involved in this topic...come on everyone, tell us your ideas and opinions!)

Best Regards, Chris.

[Chris Hocking]

David,

Thanks for your prompt reply!

Just out of interest, which Embedded Linux are you going to use?

(Sorry for all the questions...!)

Best Regards, Chris.

[wallacedom]

There isn't really an "embedded linux version." I would take a guess that they have taken the same approach as FPS did with the HogIII and simply taken a 2.4.x kernel, stripped all but the necessary driver modules, packages and software out of it and put their GUI and Operating Software on it.

That is the beauty of Linux, you can build a completely customised OS from the ground up. If you don't like anything about it, all you do is open up your favourite C editor and edit away!

Cheers,
Dominic Wallace
Year 11 Student, Gold Coast, Qld

[Chris Hocking]

Dominic,

You're probably right in regards to the Vista team just using a stripped 2.4.x kernel, although there are several embedded linux versions/distros/packages out there.

For example:

Lineo -- http://www.lineo.com/
MontaVista (Hard Hat Linux) -- http://www.mvista.com/
LynuxWorks (Blue Cat Linux) -- http://www.lynuxworks.com/
Red Hat Embedded -- http://www.redhat.com/embedded/
Midori Linux -- http://midori.transmeta.com/index.shtml
etc.

Best Regards, Chris.

[Spot]

Re Vista OS, presently using Redhat.

re USB, present uses for it include external mouse, external keyboard, memory stick for backup, and console linking. None require particularly high bandwidth (memory stick access is more a function of the sticks' internals) so data rate isn't really an issue. Having commonly available peripherals is much more important.

Best.


David

[adam]

Ahhh, Now that makes sense.
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Adam Boon
webmaster@paservices.com

[Chris Hocking]

Imagine you're doing a show that has been all pre-programmed. The show is travelling all around Australia, going to something like 25+ venues. Each time you get to a venue you plug in the desk and set the positions up for the movers.

Wouldn't it be great if when you turned on the desk a friendly and personal user interface appeared with picture of say, the logo of the show, and a few buttons (ie. watch timecode, position light x, position light y, etc.).

One of the best features of the MSOFFICE products is its internal programming, specifically VBA, Jscript, MS Scripting, etc.

The Horizon software allows you to control its software via HTML, Java, VB, etc. which is perfect for installations.

I think it would be a cool feature if the Vista had its own internal scripting feature so that you could *really* customize the desk. The example I used before could be done with this feature, but there are hundreds of other uses.

On every piece of computer software there are always tasks that you have to do *over* and *over again (probably even more so for lighting!). Luckily most packages have a way to speed up the process (macros, Photoshop has its "Actions", etc.) -- it's my belief that the Vista should offer such a feature as well.

Just an idea!...

~ Chris

[Chris Hocking]

When I had a look at the Vista screenshots I must say that I love the familiar "colour picker". One suggestion though, you should (if you haven't already) add an "eye dropper" (like most image manipulation programs have) and an image importer.

For example, you take a digital photo of the set and stage, burn it onto CD, put the CD in the Vista, open up the "colour picker" load the image from the CD and then you can "eye drop" the colour of the set to match the colours of the lights.

Simple feature, but would be very, very handy and easy to add...

~ Chris